Talk:Doktor Johannes Faust

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A fact from Doktor Johannes Faust appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 5 June 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the opera Doktor Johannes Faust by Hermann Reutter, which was premiered by the Oper Frankfurt in 1936, is based on a puppet play?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/June. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Doktor Johannes Faust.

Wikipedia

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 07:41, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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~~... that the opera Doktor Johannes Faust by Hermann Reutter, based on a puppet play about the Faust topic, was premiered by the Oper Frankfurt in 1936, directed by Walter Felsenstein?~~ Source: [1]

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Julian Wylie

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 15:24, 9 May 2020 (UTC).[reply]

Not a full review, just a comment: do we need to squeeze three facts into this one hook? To me, as someone who is not remotely interested in opera, the best hook here would end after "based on a puppet play about the Faust topic" – we don't need to lengthen the hook with unnecessary details. As a casual reader, I don't really care where or when it premiered, and I especially don't care who the director was. But an opera based on a puppet play? That's interesting. I would click to read more. I know you like long hooks, Gerda, but this one would be great if it were shorter. 97198 (talk) 13:42, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So you would miss two things I found much more interesting: that it was one of the successes under the Nazi regime (which possibly wanted puppet play rather the Goethe's literature), and that Felsenstein, known worldwide for his later socialist stagings in East Berlin's Komische Oper Berlin (1947 to 1975), was part of such a thing. I did not know that! As your preferred fact is at the beginning, I see nothing wrong presenting something which may fascinate others also. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:05, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you believe more than 1% of DYK's audience will recognise his name, make that connection, and find it fascinating – I think you may be disappointed. 97198 (talk) 13:40, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's why I wouldn't say that alone, only for dessert. If on a diet, skip dessert. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:27, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It becomes less hooky when you add extra waffle, is the issue. And it could leave the audience confused. This is another one where there are clearly lots and lots of interesting facets, but an overwhelming majority of people know nothing about opera to appreciate them. Are you willing to propose another hook, Gerda? I'll happily review it then :) Kingsif (talk) 00:02, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You can drop the director, but as said above, that's a meal without dessert. and it's not a hook I stand behind. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just a comment, but I think User:97198's advice is sound and strongly recommend User:Gerda Arendt to heed. Mentioning the director's name without context will go over the heads of almost all readers. It would be different in the body of an article, but on the front page of Wikipedia we can't assume any background knowledge beyond basic English. Too many relative clauses makes for a clunky sentence. That an opera was premiered by an opera company is not a surprising fact, though it is worth mentioning. The connection to a puppet play is the most surprising fact to a lay reader. So the grammar of the hook should swap what it highlights as the main fact and what it considers incidental. I'd greatly prefer

ALT1: ... that the opera Doktor Johannes Faust by Hermann Reutter, premiered by the Oper Frankfurt in 1936, was based on a puppet play about the Faust topic." MartinPoulter (talk) 10:51, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is the mention of it premiering at the Oper Frankfurt necessary here? @MartinPoulter: The way you wrote it makes the mention break the flow of the hook. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 13:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Narutolovehinata5: I don't see any harm in this one subordinate clause which gives a relevant fact about the subject and keeps the hook well within the length limit. MartinPoulter (talk) 16:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The current phrasing hides the hooky fact, though, treating the puppet show like a side note to the fact it premiered. And a premiere merely happening is not hooky. Kingsif (talk) 17:27, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

New enough, long enough, QPQ needs to be done. Hook needs copy-editing as it is too wordy. --evrik ^(talk) 20:50, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I reviewed Template:Did you know nominations/Julian Wylie. I am not sure that being based on a medieval puppet play (not show) is hooky, while a premiere in Nazi Germany seems more exciting to me, but am too tired to fight.
ALT2: ... that the opera Doktor Johannes Faust by Hermann Reutter, premiered by the Oper Frankfurt in 1936, was based on a puppet play? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:22, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ALT2a: ... that the opera Doktor Johannes Faust by Hermann Reutter was premiered by the Oper Frankfurt in 1936, and based on a puppet play?
ALT1a: ... that the 1936 opera Doktor Johannes Faust by Hermann Reutter was premiered by the Oper Frankfurt and based on a puppet play about Faust?"

Approving Alt2. Offering Alt1a andAlt2a for the promoter. --evrik ^(talk) 21:46, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]